OrderedBytes
OrderedBytes User Forum
FAQ FAQ     Search Search     Memberlist Memberlist     Usergroups Usergroups     Register Register
Profile Profile     Log in to check your private messages Log in to check your private messages     Log in Log in
MIDI Nomenclature, and, CC's...
Display posts from previous:         View previous topic :: View next topic
Post new topic Reply to topic Subscribe to this topic    The OrderedBytes Forum -> MIDI
MIDI Nomenclature, and, CC's... Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:14 pm  •   #11095
RTZ



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 21

Hi Ken,

A couple of things for your consideration...

1) The Octave Numbering of MIDI notes is Incorrect

There are two standards used to name MIDI notes. One is where middle C (always note #60) is labeled as "C3". The other is where middle C (again, always note #60) is labeled as "C4". If you asked 2 people which standard should be used, their answer might depend on what part of the world they live in. So essentially there is no standard. But calling it C5, as in CM, is just too far off the mark.

As I'm in the US, where middle C = C3 is the norm, I'd like to suggest that the names of MIDI notes be corrected so that the lowest possible MIDI note (#0) reads as C-2, middle C (#60) is C3, and the highest possible MIDI note (#127) is G8.

2) MIDI Aftertouch is Incorrectly Named

The actual type of event this building block outputs is called Polyphonic Aftertouch, which is not the same as what is commonly referred to as simply "Aftertouch" (this being Channel Pressure). And as with what I wrote above, the note names for Poly Aftertouch (also "Poly Pressure") events are incorrect.

3) Missing CC Implementation

To my surprise, CM's MIDI building blocks don't include one for generating Control Change messages (CC's). These are one of the most oft-used kind of MIDI message short of notes. It would greatly enhance CM's abilities as a source of MIDI messages if you could include a CC Message Output block.

Best Regards,

Peter
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Re: MIDI Nomenclature, and, CC's... Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:55 pm  •   #11409
Ken
Developer


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 4038

Thanks for the feedback. While researching MIDI, I found a variety of conflicting information. So I wouldn't be surprised if I missed some of the accepted conventions...

RTZ wrote:
1) The Octave Numbering of MIDI notes is Incorrect

There is a setting in ControllerMate's preferences that should set the note numbering convention.

RTZ wrote:
2) MIDI Aftertouch is Incorrectly Named

I have seen 'Polyphonic Aftertouch', 'Polyphonic Key Pressure', 'Channel Pressure', 'Channel Aftertouch', 'Aftertouch' in various places ... enough to make me think "just who wrote this spec?!?" I'll take another look at the names though.

RTZ wrote:
3) Missing CC Implementation

Doesn't the MIDI Variable Controller Output provide these messages?

_________________
Ken
www.orderedbytes.com - www.controllermate.com
ControllerMate -- Programming controllers for Mac OS X since 2005.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:20 pm  •   #11410
RTZ



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 21

Thanks for your reply, as always!

Regarding octave numbering conventions, I wasn't aware that there was a preference for this. Thanks for pointing that out.

Still, let me suggest that there's no reason to have choices for middle C other than C3 or C4. C5 is simply never used with respect to naming MIDI notes.

On distinctions and nomenclature regarding aftertouch, I can give you authoritative information on this:

"Aftertouch" refers to the act of applying pressure to one or more keys after notes are played. The amount of pressure can be sensed in only one of two ways:

Channel Aftertouch (Monophonic Aftertouch, Channel Pressure, Aftertouch). Here, a single pressure sensor spans the length of the keyboard. The greatest amount of pressure applied to any key will be reflected in the data byte for Channel Pressure messages -- hence "monophonic". The actual keys played make no difference. This is reflected in the fact that there's only one data byte associated with these kinds of messages -- the pressure value. "Aftertouch" most commonly refers to this kind of message because the other type of aftertouch is rarely implemented.

• Polyphonic Aftertouch (Poly Pressure, Key Pressure, Poly Aftertouch, etc.) Keyboards capable of generating these kinds of messages have a force sensor under every individual key. Thus, the first data byte is the MIDI note number of the key to which pressure is being applied, the second data byte being the amount of force applied to it.

I'd suggest using the labels "Mono Aftertouch" and "Poly Aftertouch" to distinguish between them.

Finally, I didn't think to look at the MIDI Variable Controller building block because of the nomenclature "MIDI Variable Controller". I'd like to suggest that it be named "MIDI Control Change" which reflects the official name for these kinds of messages (Control Change messages, commonly referred to as CC's).

In closing, we can talk nomenclature/shnomenclature all day long, but I'm still your biggest fan!

Best,

Peter
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:59 pm  •   #11411
Ken
Developer


Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 4038

Thanks for the additional comments.

RTZ wrote:
Still, let me suggest that there's no reason to have choices for middle C other than C3 or C4. C5 is simply never used with respect to naming MIDI notes.

Don't you mean that C4 is never used with respect to naming MIDI notes? I have definitely seen references to C3 and C5.
_________________
Ken
www.orderedbytes.com - www.controllermate.com
ControllerMate -- Programming controllers for Mac OS X since 2005.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:18 am  •   #11412
RTZ



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 21

No, what I wrote is correct. C5 is never referenced as middle C. It's only ever C3 or C4.
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:16 am  •   #11976
RTZ



Joined: 14 Aug 2015
Posts: 21

Hi Ken,

I'm revisiting this topic because I'm finally getting around to looking at the MIDI Controller building block, and I'm mystified as to how to get it to output messages. It's not of the same design as the Program Change block, to which you can connect input from the output of a logic block, or (as in my case) the output of an XKeys button to send discreet messages. And that's what I need.

I also wanted to point out that the nomenclature you're using is non-standard in the MIDI world. If the idea of the block is to output Control Change messages (CC's), that's the term I would suggest using instead of "Controller" -- a term usually reserved for keyboards ("keyboard controller") or even MIDI fader packs and similar devices.

It would be of great benefit to musicians if your system if your Control Change building block would allow for discreet values of CC's to be generated (e.g., CC#32, value = 1) in response to everyday triggers like device buttons, logic decisions, etc.

Best,

RTZ
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:25 pm  •   #12094
JonnyP



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 49
Location: US Capitol Region

RTZ wrote:
No, what I wrote is correct. C5 is never referenced as middle C. It's only ever C3 or C4.


I have definitively seem C3, C4 and C5 ALL refer to middle C!!!
And I have wondered the same thing many times, Ken: who wrote this standard?!?! It can be quite a confusing standard that I've often thought could use an overhaul or complete replacement! I can only imagine how much more confusing MIDI would be to a non-musician; or perhaps it might actually be a good way to explain certain aspects of music to individuals of a certain brain type...

I'm from the US & currently live in the US and I have actually encountered C4 as middle C most often (most notably in my university music classes).

I certainly prefer C4 as middle C for several reasons. First, because it puts the lowest notes on the piano in the 0 octave; good logic there. Secondly, because this makes A4 = 440Hz; good mnemonic device. This also means I never have to deal with negative octave numbers (although they still exist) which make no sense from a logical perspective in my opinion. I also assert that C4 should be the default setting for middle C in CM.

The argument only argument I'm aware of for C5 as middle C is that this eliminates any negative octave numbers. Although, honestly... I've never encountered the use of that lowest octave- probably largely because it lies below the range of human hearing!


As anecdotal trivia I can offer the explanation I was taught concerning the confusion and discrepancy regarding after touch & pressure. Channel pressure was conceived of & devised as a way of measuring & recording the air pressure of wind-based MIDI instruments. These instruments are monophonic in nearly all actual, physical instruments (bagpipes are the main exception- some would say harmonica). For MIDI purposes these devices have their own channel- hence channel pressure.
The development of keyboards which have pressure sensors for each key came later; it's more often referred to as after touch because that nomenclature fits better with the logic of one's touch on a key while holding it down (sustain) after having struck it (attack) to initiate the note.
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Page 1 of 1 All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Post new topic Reply to topic Subscribe to this topic    The OrderedBytes Forum -> MIDI
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Copyright © 2005 — 2012 OrderedBytes
All rights reserved.